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02-04-2007, 06:30 PM
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#81
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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sounds like cubase. i think they call it vst-meter there. it doesn't show the real cpu usage, but the usage to fill the soundcard buffer or so. pretty strange thing imo.
reaper is cool now (even on dual processor machines). it shows what the taskmanager is showing. no confusion anymore.
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02-04-2007, 06:42 PM
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#82
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff
sounds like cubase. i think they call it vst-meter there. it doesn't show the real cpu usage, but the usage to fill the soundcard buffer or so. pretty strange thing imo.
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Wow, that's dodgy! I wonder if this is how some Cubase users report lower cpu usage than Reaper?
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02-04-2007, 06:53 PM
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#83
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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might be in certain cases. in general it really should (and is) a bit lower (sse optimisations, only 32bit engine) compared to reaper.
i found out that it depends much on the plugins used. with some plugins you'll get MUCH more cpu usage displayed in the taskmanager than in the cubase-meter. i suspect the programming of the gui of these plugins.
anyway. this was on my old p4-machine. i'm not a steinberg user anymore ...
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02-04-2007, 06:54 PM
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#84
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A place that allows me to protect myself...
Posts: 8,245
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My first Steinie product was Cubase VST 5.1 BLECH! Pa-TOOEY! Sorry, still get a bad taste in my mouth when I speak the name... (even typing the name. LOL!) The meter in that thing reported cosmic rays bouncing off Venus or something. It certainly had NOTHING to do with my PC's CPU usage.
Later on... I got Poobase LE with a soundcard purchase... same deal with the meter. Must be a Steinie thang.
D
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02-04-2007, 08:50 PM
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#85
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff
(sse optimisations, only 32bit engine) compared to reaper..
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reaper doesnt have sse extensions?
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02-04-2007, 08:57 PM
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#86
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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afaik not. justin?
btw: what compiler do you use? intel? i always read that this one creates the "fastest" code. if so, do you always use the latest (stable) version of it (cause it might be good to always have the best support/optimisations for the latest prozessors)?
Last edited by Dstruct; 02-04-2007 at 09:00 PM.
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02-04-2007, 09:06 PM
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#87
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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02-04-2007, 09:13 PM
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#88
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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reaper uses all scalar 64 bit math.. and since we use VC6 for the windows build, it gets compiled to x87...
the mac version gets compiled to SSE on intel (since that's the standard), but FWIW it actually seems to be slower.. but that may just be a gcc vs MSVC thing...
-Justin
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02-04-2007, 09:28 PM
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#89
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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thanks! i really would like to see, what the intel compiler could bring for the windows builds.
about sse assembler stuff: i don't care about that much. i know, that this will bring additional bugs and problems. the most important thing is to write good modular code i think (to catch the bugs faster).
but please keep the intel compiler in mind justin! (i think aleksey from voxengo uses this one too and he said it even produces faster code for amd processors - but i don't know to wich other compiler compared).
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02-04-2007, 09:48 PM
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#90
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bali
Posts: 161
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Well it's been a while since i last posted but always keenly interested in Reapers development... it's painful to see how much time & effort must be going into fixing this issue which i feel is a combination of bug vst documentation & UAD's inability to implement correct handling of the bus... thanks SRR for sending Justin your card.
Recently Lynx support provided me with a tweak version firmware that fixed some playback glitches & DMA settings (nforce2 related) plus improved the UAD playback (not munch though), all of which seems to be related to the handling of bus/dma priority. This may not be of much use but i decided to post in the hope that all the bits n pieces will help find a solution. there are many posts on the UAD forum to indicate that certain intel chipsets work well with UAD... bottom line is most users there seem to run steinberg products, so go figure (2 wrongs can make it right)
Here a reaper project with 25% native usage will jump to 75% (with UAD plugs loaded to 80%)… so far best performance is UAD config set to extra buffers=1 and GNT=128... billyb has his 4 UAD's working great but think its partly due to the chipset & bus of the P5B... what i noticed is that DX plugs seem better than vst and as a result use v3.5.2 drivers... changing the v4.5 drivers, which i may add, screwed my dreamverb & other demo versions before i even had chance to try. I know i can get the demos working again but think its ridiculous to have such issues with this (glorified dongle) & don’t care 2 try... hehe, you can see i'm pi$$'d at this... i have wasted hours upon hours trying to get this working smoothly and always end up with some compromise (unless you use Steinberg or maybe the new versions of Sonar & Samp... which I don’t have)
My experience shows that unless you run a Steinberg product, implementing UAD can be a damn difficult especially if you have the wrong combination of mobo/chipset/audio-driver. The plugs do sound great but i'm beginning to wonder if they really worth all the hassle... 2 note, that Stillwell's plugs are superb, especially the new EQ's & majorT which get really close to some of UAD with less colour… I really hope he can continue with this & possibly even introduce a PSP vintage warmer type multiband, which would be outrageous… that’s the one to model – forget UAD
Instead of buying another UAD, I would rather spend the money on room acoustics...
edit: v1.77 - when using DX plugs there's still munch but maybe this relates to vst & new drivers
__________________
Reaper cuts the mustard !
Last edited by akoustic; 02-04-2007 at 10:06 PM.
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02-05-2007, 01:11 AM
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#91
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
AdamCR, i dont want to offend you or make an enemy out of you.
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You're not insulting my (dead) mother, or beating my dog so as things stand it's unlikely that I'll ever consider you an 'enemy'.
The problem I have with statements (common statements) of the type that you made is simply that they aren't true, or at best they're huge over-simplifications.
I don't particularly care what you think about the UAD1 card for example, but I do object to the way that people seem to be democratising the truth via the web.
You post on here a lot, as do a couple of other posters. You all tend to agree/support each other.
Fine.
But what happens in these circumstances is that ill-founded opinions become ill-founded shared opinions become facts.
In 6 months, anybody idly wondering about a possible purchase of a UAD1 card who finds themselves reading the Reaper forums will doubtless be greeted by threads entitled 'How the UAD1 destroyed my life!' or 'Why software companies refuse to speak the name UAD1' or 'I can prove the UAD1 doesn't exist'.
It's a problem peculiar to men, and a problem exacerbated by the ease of 'opinion' sharing on the net.
It's why you should never ask a man for directions.
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02-05-2007, 01:27 AM
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#92
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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in my opinion UA deserves any bad reputation they get
no less than Sony busted their asses trying to get UAD-1 to work well with their apps. For years
Angus the hero, compatibility wizard extrordinaire, was unable to get the UAD-1 DX setup working
Cakewalk, try as they might could not get this thing solved, till possibly just recently
I think this reputation is earned
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02-05-2007, 03:47 AM
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#93
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 65
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No problems running UAD plugs with Reaper 1.77 on my system.
Example: 2 separate Fairchilds, 1 1176LN & 1 LA2A use 53% performance in the UAD meter and 17% CPU in Reaper. This is similar to the performance in Nuendo and indicates that UAD performance would max out long before the CPU in Reaper.
Don't know whether it's the fix in 1.77 or just my system (AUS p4p, p4 3.0, 2 GB, matrox650, 1 UAD card, Fireface 800).
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02-05-2007, 04:04 AM
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#94
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arse end of the earth.
Posts: 2,988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MlewisDE
Don't know whether it's the fix in 1.77 or just my system (AUS p4p, p4 3.0, 2 GB, matrox650, 1 UAD card, Fireface 800).
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Maybe if everyone listed theyre Systems and whether theyre having problems or not....there might be some common threads???
Ive read things about AGP video cards being better than PCI-e ATM for DAWs....things like that may pop up.
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02-05-2007, 04:07 AM
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#95
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bali
Posts: 161
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MlewisDE... good to hear that & think that bus/chipset/driver combination plays a big part. Some users even found that installing on anything other than C:drive, caused the munch.
Here's a great thread on the cakewalk forum... a wealth of info for anyone needing feedback on the subject.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=886591&mpage=12&key=
__________________
Reaper cuts the mustard !
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02-05-2007, 04:29 AM
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#96
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billoon
Ive read things about AGP video cards being better than PCI-e ATM for DAWs....things like that may pop up.
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only applies to some chipsets: http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/PCIe_01.htm
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02-05-2007, 04:47 AM
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#97
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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well, i think that everything that could be said has been.
no use in picking this scab any longer
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02-05-2007, 08:03 AM
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#98
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 706
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Preliminary testing seems to show me that the UAD problems are fixed in REAPER 1.77!! Native munching is no longer going on, and I'm not getting those nasty gaps and clicks on starting playback. Dunno how you did it, but this is great news - massive thanks Justin... and to the guy that lent Justin his UAD card.
Not tested extensively yet, but if this fix definitely flawless, Cockos will at last have a commercial licence fee from me. Then I can get on to nagging Justin about those little annoyances I keep banging on about in other threads...
Ben
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02-05-2007, 12:37 PM
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#99
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Zero
Preliminary testing seems to show me that the UAD problems are fixed in REAPER 1.77!! Native munching is no longer going on, and I'm not getting those nasty gaps and clicks on starting playback. Dunno how you did it, but this is great news - massive thanks Justin... and to the guy that lent Justin his UAD card.
Not tested extensively yet, but if this fix definitely flawless, Cockos will at last have a commercial licence fee from me. Then I can get on to nagging Justin about those little annoyances I keep banging on about in other threads...
Ben
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Do you have the UAD no-flush option on in the prefs/VST plug-ins section? If so, does disabling it cause munch?
-Justin
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02-05-2007, 01:09 PM
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#100
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
Do you have the UAD no-flush option on in the prefs/VST plug-ins section? If so, does disabling it cause munch?
-Justin
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Having the UAD no-flush option enabled causes serious crackling, high CPU usage (50%-60% when normally 10%-15%)& even out of sync tracks (loss of PDC?), no matter what sample buffer size, even my normally sweetspot of 128 exhibits the same behavior. Disable the UAD no-flush option and the UAD-1 plugins playback fine (no crackling/out of sync tracks), albeit with the same native CPU munching, at higher sample buffers, as in previous versions, but I get my 128 sample buffer sweetspot back and can mix with no native CPU munching again.
So far, it seems the new UAD no-flush option causes more harm than good, on my Core 2 Duo DAW.
Cheers,
Billy Buck
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02-05-2007, 01:14 PM
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#101
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybk1
Having the UAD no-flush option enabled causes serious crackling, high CPU usage (50%-60% when normally 10%-15%)& even out of sync tracks (loss of PDC?), no matter what sample buffer size, even my normally sweetspot of 128 exhibits the same behavior. Disable the UAD no-flush option and the UAD-1 plugins playback fine (no crackling/out of sync tracks), albeit with the same native CPU munching, at higher sample buffers, as in previous versions, but I get my 128 sample buffer sweetspot back and can mix with no native CPU munching again.
So far, it seems the new UAD no-flush option causes more harm than good, on my Core 2 Duo DAW.
Cheers,
Billy Buck
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Heh, funny, because it greatly improves things on my test rig... (though granted it does result in a loss of PDC)
*sigh*.. maybe UAD will get back to me and say "are you doing X?" .. but I'm not holding my breath...
-Justin
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02-05-2007, 01:27 PM
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#102
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 148
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I've got a UAD-1, but haven't used it much so far.
How about if someone ups a test project, with just the default plugins, and we can compare CPU usage, and system specs? Might narrow down the problem.
For me so far I haven't had any problems with my UAD-1 in Reaper.
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02-05-2007, 01:30 PM
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#103
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemmy
I've got a UAD-1, but haven't used it much so far.
How about if someone ups a test project, with just the default plugins, and we can compare CPU usage, and system specs? Might narrow down the problem.
For me so far I haven't had any problems with my UAD-1 in Reaper.
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gee thats a swell idea lemmy
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02-05-2007, 01:43 PM
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#104
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
Do you have the UAD no-flush option on in the prefs/VST plug-ins section? If so, does disabling it cause munch?
-Justin
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Yep, I do have the no-flush option enabled. Without it enabled, REAPER exhibits the munching and crackling and playback start behaviour. But, yeah, with it on I've just noticed the loss of PDC. Shame, as otherwise it seems you're there. Any way to get around losing PDC?
Ben
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02-05-2007, 04:01 PM
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#105
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 187
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Does using the UAD delay compensation plug, help with losing PDC, or are you losing it for every non UA plug that you use too?
I would tell you what it did on my system, but a little elf has my card, and he can continue to have it till he gives up, or gets this fixed. I am really not in a hurry to get this back anymore.
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02-05-2007, 04:23 PM
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#106
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Zero
Yep, I do have the no-flush option enabled. Without it enabled, REAPER exhibits the munching and crackling and playback start behaviour. But, yeah, with it on I've just noticed the loss of PDC. Shame, as otherwise it seems you're there. Any way to get around losing PDC?
Ben
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I'll see what I can do
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02-05-2007, 06:28 PM
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#107
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 706
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Great! Thanks
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02-06-2007, 02:59 AM
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#108
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: in a hotel room near you
Posts: 1,175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
I'll see what I can do
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wonderful!
a couple more things to report on 1.77:
0. It's better for me with the flush setting "on". Much better.
1. CPU munching increases for just the first few seconds of a loop. Unfortunately, on my supercrappy system this causes a complete crawl to a standstill as the munch takes about 60% cpu!!
So, i can't really loop at present.
2. when you 'render fx to new take' you get a little bit sound at the start of a render sometimes which is in the wrong place, plus, the file ends up non time aligned (due to pdc not active)?
3. I sometimes get a bluescreen (cause "hypaudio.sys") on the very first time i hit play on a uad-1 enabled project. It appears to be the la2 that mainly causes this.
Also, thanks to SRR for lending J the card. Fantastic!
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02-06-2007, 04:14 AM
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#109
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz lee
Also, thanks to SRR for lending J the card. Fantastic!
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My pleasure.
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02-10-2007, 03:13 PM
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#110
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: in a hotel room near you
Posts: 1,175
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How we all doing with the UAD-1 now?
I'm curious to know where we are with the Plugin Delay Comp.
Is my mix going to sound like it did last week (aghhh -- no PDC) or two weeks ago (PDC, but agghh - bad uad performance) when i boot it up next time?
1.79 seems a lot more stable on my system, though, apart from a blue screen on initial starting of some uad plugins.
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02-10-2007, 03:20 PM
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#111
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 187
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Patience young grasshopper...that is what he basically last told me.
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02-10-2007, 03:36 PM
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#112
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: in a hotel room near you
Posts: 1,175
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patience i shall have, master of the uad.
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02-10-2007, 10:57 PM
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#113
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Zero
Yep, I do have the no-flush option enabled. Without it enabled, REAPER exhibits the munching and crackling and playback start behaviour. But, yeah, with it on I've just noticed the loss of PDC. Shame, as otherwise it seems you're there. Any way to get around losing PDC?
Ben
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Yeah same here - in 1.79 enabling that option kills PDC.....no good
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02-10-2007, 11:07 PM
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#114
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 466
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But turn it off, crackle time during rendering. Ouch!
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02-10-2007, 11:40 PM
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#115
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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I'm going to experiment with some ideas when I get back, yall... due to help from UAD I think I know exactly what causes it (behavior their driver expects that REAPER doesnt always comply with, and can't due to design reasons), so hopefully I'll have more news for ya sometime in the next week, either in the form of a better fix, or a bigger explanation..
-J
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02-11-2007, 03:35 PM
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#116
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: in a hotel room near you
Posts: 1,175
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wow. Thank you.
was that 'help from uad' i saw there?
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02-11-2007, 04:33 PM
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#117
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz lee
wow. Thank you.
was that 'help from uad' i saw there?
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news report: the current icy conditions faced in upper new york state are actually the result of underground freezing
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02-11-2007, 05:17 PM
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#118
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
reaper uses all scalar 64 bit math
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can't sse2 be used for this?
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02-11-2007, 05:36 PM
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#119
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff
can't sse2 be used for this?
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my understanding is that the newer SSE versions can, but aren't really any faster for it...
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02-11-2007, 05:52 PM
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#120
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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not? why do they exist then?
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